Shock collars are a big subject in the world of dog training. People who are opposed to them are vehemently (and usually angrily) against them. Those that promote them are very defensive of their stance.
I'm writing this post because I recently saw a Halifax training site, that is very heavily promoted, making use of what they refer to as "E-collars". E-Collars stand for electronic collar, which is a nicer way of saying 'shock' collar.
On this site they had 2-3 videos showing how great E-collars work - and I was really curious to see this. I was curious to see how a site was going to get customers when they are going to post videos of dogs being shocked. Upon watching them though I discovered the real ugly truth about this training method - they actually DON'T want you to see it up front!
One video showed a trainer and dog (a Shepard mix) doing an obedience routine with many sits, downs, lots of eye contact, and various obedience work being done on an agility style pause table. This dog was already trained and thus wasn't shocked once during the video. The premise of the video was to see how great E-collar training can make your dog - but without actually showing the method itself.
The second video showed how great E-collars are for curing aggression. This video showed an out of control dog, lunging and snarling in one clip - then faded to the same dog behaving perfectly and walking calming. Again - no shocks, no method shown, just final product.
The third video showed an 8 year old girl or so 'training' a rottie. Once again it was deceiving because the girl never actually 'trained' the dog - he was clearly trained very well. The little girl proceeded to walk around with the dog at perfect heel position, and give a number of commands. The shock collar was on the dog, and the trainer was filming. I'll mention the importance of this later.
Some people might ask, well I only want a trained dog, I am only interested in the final product, why should I care how a professional gets to the finished product? I don't need to watch my mechanic work on my car, I just want it to work when I pick it up.
Well dog training is very different - cars aren't alive, dogs are. The method used to train your dog is going to have a total effect on his personality, relationship with you and others, and may or may not cause other problems. This same training company says their training methods are 'based in science' however science is quite clear that punishment should be a last resort for training - and must be used extremely carefully to avoid lasting behavioral damage.
Stephen Lindsay in his excellent book "Handbook of applied dog behavior and training vol 1" lists 20 different concerns that you must be aware of when using punishment training. A whole chapter in this very long (420pg) book is devoted to the science of punishment in training and various experiments done on animals throughout the ages on punishment training. He lists well over 40 scientific papers in his review.
His conclusion in this matter: "Punishment should be used only after other positive training options have been carefully considered or exhausted."
Furthermore - the Veterinary Behavior Society of America states: "The AVSAB's position is that punishment is not appropriate as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Modification should focus on reinforcing desirable behaviors, removing reinforcement for inappropriate behaviors, and addressing the emotional state and environmental conditions driving undesirable behavior."
The Canadian Veterinary Society states: "Recent years have seen a shift towards reward-based methods, such as clicker training and the use of food, toys and praise as motivators. Animal behaviourists conclude that training techniques that employ punishment rather than rewards-based methods do not improve dog obedience and actually increase problematic dog behaviours.Confrontational methods of training such as the use of physical force, rolling dogs, growling, or staring dogs down may increase the likelihood of aggressive responses in dogs. The use of shock collars is associated with short-term and long-term negative consequences including fear and anxiety.
I go into more detail on why punishment isn't effective on my site - but the biggest problem I see with punishment is a very general one. Dog training is generally done BY the owner - with guidance and direction from the trainer. This means that most training being done on the dog isn't by a professional, but rather the owner.
When I run obedience classes I give homework to my classes - without practice there is no way a group of dogs can learn any behavior reliably in an hour. We discuss success and failure through the 6 week class and work on improvement. I want pet owners who feel like they can communicate and train their dog without always needing a professional trainer.
As with any new skill, people make mistakes. Some people are more skilled and catch on - others take more time and make more errors. When I do clicker training I see people clicking at the wrong time, forgetting to click, giving food at the wrong time, not phasing out food in time - you name it. I have older people that may take extra explanation, and children that are overly eager and excited. We coach and work through the errors and issues to improve everyone's skill.
With clicker and food training - this isn't a big deal. Worse case scenario is the dog takes longer to train and maybe gets a lot of extra food that maybe he didn't really need. A wrong click or a wrong food delivery won't hurt anyone. People also get frustrated and sometimes want to give up but we talk through it.
With punishment however - errors can cause serious psychological damage and aggression. This is specially true if the owner is getting frustrated. This is also not a method that every dog will respond to. I normally see shock collar demonstrations on Shepards and other large, tough breeds - I have yet to see an E-collar on a pug or king charles spaniel. Every dog however likes reinforcement - and it doesn't have to be food - it can be play, toys, freedom, whatever.
So the bottom line here is if you make mistakes using positive reinforcement methods - you might not have a well trained dog until you sharpen your skills - if you make mistakes using punishment, you might have a highly aggressive dog, or one that shuts down and lives a miserable life of fear and frustration. Or worse case, you don't notice anything is wrong with the dog until he bites your neighbours kid.
Remember the little girl from the video? Well one issue with punishment is the behavior falls apart if the conditions during punishment are no longer present. For example if the trainer is the only person shocking the dog, he may not listen to the little girl unless the trainer is present. In the video the trainer is there filming - so the dog obeys the girl because conditions for punishment in place.
There is no reason to need to resort to punishment unless positive methods have failed, and this will very rarely happen. I would also argue that no matter how well behaved a punishment trained dog is - I would never trust one around my children or loved ones. Punishment can build a ticking time bomb of aggression. People and animals alike who are consistently subjected to punishment will only take so much before they explode. Why even take that risk?
You are bang on with the dog only behaving if the conditioned cues are present.
ReplyDeleteI observed that trainer whose video clips you refer to demonstrate his precision trained dogs in one of Halifax' parks - fitted with the shock collar and a prong collar. Shouldn't a well trained dog perform without any equipment?
Murray Sidman states in his book Coercion and its Fallout that punishments always have a fallout - avoidance. And indeed that is what I see in so many dogs I work with. Owner avoidance, anxiety and it's expressions including self-mutilation, or aggression - directed or redirected.
Maybe you can force a dog to do your bidding, and shock collars don't work with every dog, but you can never force companionship.
Shock collar training can cause, and often does, lifelong and irreparable damage in the dog.
Thanks Silvia - Well said! Another interesting thing I notice about punishment trainers is they seem to offer a lot of 'board and trains'. I can't imagine surrendering my dog for training to someone else. Dogs should be companions and friends, not something to be taken in for programming. Owners need to be involved in the training process to build solid relationships and training should be fun for both the dog and owner.
ReplyDeleteShock collars are for lazy people who have no control over thier animal and see this as a fit way to train a dog ABOLISH THEM. I think its animal cruelty.
ReplyDeleteLooks like unleashed potential left a comment but decided to delete it..
ReplyDeleteI didn't delete the comment...
ReplyDeleteWhy was it not posted?
no idea, I don't filter my comments, it was sent to me via email that someone commented, but then it wasn't on here, i assumed it had been deleted by poster.
ReplyDeleteI didn't delete it.
ReplyDeleteI did want to say however that it's easy to make me out as a cruel dog trainer, since you have not seen me train, or met me.
I would encourage you to meet me in person rather than blog about me without knowing how I train.
It would probably shock a lot of people to see all the book I have on positive methods, and how I use food and marker training with every dog I train. Just so you know...
I always allow people, including other trainers to come out and train with me or watch me, and open that up to any buddy. If they decide that what they thought about our methods were correct, then by all means, blog away.
P.s. Our board and train program is backed by lifetime group training for our clients, I have no problem training the dogs, but the owners need on going assistance.
Hi Ted,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the offer to watch but based on all my discussions with ecollar trainers it usually just gets both people frustrated.
I will never accept the use of an ecollar in dog training, I believe there are better ways we can communicate without needing to shock a dog, no matter how mild it may seem or be set. I've had great success training all manner of dogs from extreme anxiety to human and dog aggression without needing those devices. I've also seen many dogs damaged and become aggressive by use of ecollars from both remote collars to invisible fences.
Most ecollar trainers I've had discussions with do use positive reinforcement, however generally I find they do not proof the behaviors enough nor do they do advanced positive training (Premack exercises), and prefer instead to enforce the correct behavior via positive punishment (ecollar).
As I've said in my blog, the most dangerous part of ecollars is that anyone can buy them and use them, and seeing trainers using them leads the general public to believe they can simply buy them and train a dog themselves - very dangerous.
In terms of the 'board and train' as a general rule I always caution my clients against this practice because 1) you never really know who your handing your dog over to and 2) Training your dog should be part of the relationship and the whole reason you got a dog in the first place, I don't think they should be passed off to someone else to train. You do not experience the failures and joy of learning with your dog if someone else does it for you.
It's great you provide ongoing training and free weekly sessions to all your clients, that's an idea I might have to do myself.
As for the blog and website, my goal is to educate people that using these tools carries a ton of risk, and there are better more enjoyable ways for dogs to learn to listen without needing to use punishment.
Interesting you have so much to say about talking with e-collar trainers? Which e-collar trainers have you talked to? Which e-collar trainers have you trained with?
ReplyDeleteLast year I sent e-mails to the dog trainers in Halifax and was able to sit down and show many of them how I use them in conjunction with food and marker training, and not one of those trainers could tell me it was abusive. In fact, several of them have referred me clients since.
I would have offered you the chance as well, but I had never heard of you or your company at the time.
Don't be so quick to be harsh on a tool that many of the K9 handlers in HRM use daily.
As well as pinch collars.
You talk about mans best friend, these dogs are our countries protectors, and the government and it's k9 trainers use them on a daily basis and have for decades.
Your opinion is your opinion, mine is mine, all I ask is that you actually inform yourself with me and my company before you assume things about me, our company, or our methods and then write about them.
Best regards.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteMy blog was based on your company's videos which are on your site, which I contend are very misleading. (at the very least they should have disclaimers!)
I have had discussions at length with ecollar users in the CAPPDT about methods and results, I've read many articles by trainers that use ecollars in their training.
I am not ignorant of how they are used.
I would suggest if you want to show people you also use positive reinforcement in your training that some of your videos show that as well, since almost all that I see on that site discuss ecollars.
I've seen many police dogs in the HRM work as well as the k9 bomb detection dogs, I've never seen an Ecollar on any of them, nor have their handlers indicated to me they were ever used in their training at the alberta facility. They use puppy imprinting procedures and use positive reinforcement of a kong and praise.
I agree many of these methods have been used for decades, but times are changing, and we are finally looking at things from the dogs point of view and discovering we can have well trained dogs without he use of force.
Are you aware that ecollars are banned in 7 countries in europe as well as Australia, and are close to being banned in all of england and scotland? There's more people than me that think they are a bad idea, and I imagine those countries still use dogs in protection, government and detection work.
Well we can talk in circles all day, lets let the video do the talking.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwsnf-U95w
In this video you see no E-collar, just food and prey bites, this dog was to be killed for extreme human aggression in NY before I brought him up to Canada and rehabbed him. E-collar training saved this dogs life, food training alone did not work for him, and I can have the previous owner come on here and respond if you wish...
He's now in Texas working with a trainer doing bite prevention seminars.
I guess I don't post enough positive videos online.....
I have several more filmed and will be on tv in the coming weeks.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=246098642089912
I was given the chance to do these segments on Tv, due to the fact that several of my clients work at CTV. One of them had a severely human aggressive dog and she said no other trainers would touch the dog because he was 105 pounds and had hospitalized a family friend.
Without me, and e-collar training that dog would be six feet under right now.
I recently bought a Mac and will be doing tonnes of videos, so keep watching.
Also, suggest something you want to see in a video, and if I have time I'll shoot a video based on your idea.
Best regards.
Glad to see you doing positive training on tv, I don't imagine ecollars would go over very well with the general public. I was on the news yesterday discussing them and there wasn't many people defending them. You can listen to the broadcast here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.goldenruletraining.ca/news.html
Also, here is a great blog by someone in the CAPPDT in response to a discussion i was having with other ecollar trainers about how ecollars are needed for top level obedience:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/08/the-possibilities-in-dog-training/
There are positive trainers curing aggression all the time, just because one person failed doesn't mean the method doesn't work.
He didn't agree with you on fencing in a yard over using an invisible fence…
ReplyDeleteA prong collar user calls in and says he would never use one…. hahaha.. a prong collar uses.
A person who doesn't even own a dog says shock collars are barbaric….
You tell a lady who has a barking dog next door to use a kong toy… she doesn't even own the dog.
Someone who calls in says "Your guest is just trying to push his training on people……"
When he asks you "Are there trainers who advocate there may be a solution?"
You avoid the questions… and don't answer it.
Need I say more...
Maybe we both should go on and have a debate. Care to do that with me?